/dev/urandom
August 30th, 2001 by CrusaderEh… this has been a bizarre month, with Quake 4 beingannounced with the Wolfenstein andDOOM sequels still in development,Loki requestingChapter 11 bankruptcy protection,Kohanshipping, andDRI’s continued development beingin danger of slowing. I’m still trying to makesense out of everything that’s occurred, but what do you guys think of the events from the past thirty days?Our chances as a viable gaming platform (short-term, long-term)? What’s needed to raise us up by our bootstraps, asit were? Is there still hope (I think so, but I’d like to know if I’m alone in my optimism or not…)?
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
PC gaming is on the decline really. A console can now use hi-res displays, hold user data for mods, do online gaming, and etc.
Why would a consumer want a new PC for PC games every 2-3 years? You can just buy a console that does the same now. The next generation of consoles will really eat PC gaming’s lunch.
I also think PS3 is the convergence start, so bias your thoughts. ;)
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Yea console gaming is part of it, but I also think the current state of the economy is also to blame. Economy slowsdown, the fat is cut off and linux is fat, not mussle. Linux has no chance to be a gaming platform in a slow economy. Wait till things pick up and the push will be on again.
My 2 cents.
~TotalFoo
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I never intend on going back to windows or any other closed OS. By the same token I will also never stop playing games, weather they be new, old, commercial, open source, ported, running in wine, or other.. There will be no end to linux.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I assume that the next few real Linux games will come from the usual suspects (id, Epic, …).
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
While the US economy has slowed (particularly in the tech sector), developers (hardware and software engineers) certainly have not–one only has to inspect the kernel and Xpert mailing lists to find strong pulses. With that said, however, I don’t feel Linux will be as commercially successful as Windows in regards to gaming–this is not, by any means, to say that Linux won’t have good games, or good ports of [commercial] Windows games, etc.: Loki’s doing a great job. The economic slowdown won’t affect my desire to kick back once in a while from coding to play a few rounds of Kohan or Urban Terror–likewise, I’ll definitely ramp up my support for commercial ventures that give back to the Community. Codeweavers, for instance, is a great company; their Crossover plugin architecture is a great enhancement to Linux browsers, and I didn’t hesitate to fork() $20 for a worthwhile project. Likewise, I’ll continue to purchase games from tuxgames.com in the hopes that publishers will see that there is a viable market for Linux gaming–even if it is 1/1000th the size of Windows one.
Community-wise, “our” (as gamers, developers, whatever) best bet in keeping the viability as a gaming platform is to contribute monetarily to projects such as Codeweavers, DRI, Loki, etc.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
We are better off than 2 years ago. Linux has fast 3d (thanks NVidia!) and the technical suitability of the platform for gaming has been proved.
Linux has a large user base and open source games. These could keep it alive as a potential gaming market. The Linux gaming market could grow over the years as new Linux users learn more about things and become more committed to the platform.
Linux games haven’t been profit-makers so far. This probably results in many game companies not considering it seriously for new games. Probably some companies will port games in-house and release them simultaneously for Windows and Linux, at no extra cost to consumers. They don’t have the problems Loki has been having, and this strategy could give them an edge in the competitive market. Linux gaming market is not saturated, it’s easy to get publicity for major titles, and Linux is a major platform in the game server space…
The setback could be temporary. Things could get worse if all 3D card makers drop support. But I am hopeful.
Major progress would depend on the gaming community in general – can they be convinced that Linux is an important platform for gaming?
Varis
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Until such time as there are enough hardcore gamers running Linux as their primary, home OS, there’s not going to be enough money in writing games for Linux to attract big publishers. Sure, evangelists and angels like John Carmack will write for multi-platform, but this rarely seems to be the result of any financial imperative. Having previously worked at Sierra for a number of years (not programming, and at Sierra that’s a blessing), I have a great deal of experience in the process that determines whether or not a game will get published. As a Linux evangelist (and knowing that a couple of good friends of mine who still work in their marketing department are as well), I know that a lot of other Linux supporters miss these really important points. Let me spell it out:[br]
Take the development cost, take the marketing budget for that game. Add anything up to 30% overheads, depending on a number of factors. Now take the estimated (trade) unit cost, and multiply by the number of units estimated for the first 3 months. If the second number (income) is a sufficient amount more than the first number (expenditure), then the game makes a [u]profit[/u], and it makes it to market.[br]
Now, with Windows games, there is a clearly defined set of APIs for development, and they are fairly easy to use (although not always intuitive. This reduces the overall cost of development, which increases profit. There are also a lot of people with Windows PCs, which further increases the likelihood of making a profit.[br]
Unfortunately, this cannot be said of Linux. Now, the SDL project is making fantastic inroads into solving the API problem. However, it is going to be a long time (and I think on the scale of 3 to 4 years) before Linux is going to be on enough desktops to increase the chances of making a profit to the point that as an OS it’s difficult to ignore. MacOS has always been just on the short side of this equation.[br]
Microsoft have done an absolutely brilliant job of writing a system that caters to the basic needs of developers: providing a fairly uniform API that anyone can use. Providing an out-of-the-box solution like this for Linux has got to be a priority if the barriers to entry are going to be lowered.[br]
There’s some hope, though. Despite filing for Chapter 11 protection, Loki have proven that there is (some) market for Linux games right now. However, the effort, and therefore cost, of porting each DirectX game over is still too high. Running under an emulator isn’t good enough, and beyond the ken of most mortal users, so we need to accept the fact that the vast majority of games are going to be Windows-only for the foreseeable future. The obvious task that faces Linux developers is three-fold: a concerted effort to make porting DirectX apps easy (probably a complete DX wrapper for SDL), a single point-and-click install wizard that the user feels comfortable and familiar with, and a focused marketing campaign for Linux as a gaming platform.[br]
Marketing? Yes, marketing. Those guys in suits that get paid a fortune for doing the obvious. Take a look around, you’ll see the majority of Linux adverts are in Linux trade magazines and Linux advocacy websites. Doh! Preaching to the converted isn’t going to help. Linux users know that we’ve got something pretty special. It’s time to start sharing. It’s also important to guide user’s expectations of cost. It’s easy to get carried away by the free software movement, and expect something for nothing with Linux, so a successful campaign has got to make users believe that they are getting their money’s worth when they fork out more for a game than the OS costs.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I believe its a matter of marketing, and lack of llamas. Linux games are NOT marketed. They are announced on half a dozen websites, and a FEW major retailers carry linux games, (MicroCenter here in Cincinnati). I think one solution would be to have a linux distro (preferably distributed by loki with the games) that is tailored for gamers and distributed w/ demos in game mags given away like AOL cds @ the Electronic Boutique where they become so popular, people complain about it. Imagine installing Linux, having it setup your NVidia or Matrox or ATI drivers, setting your password, doing the reboot popping in your new game, a voila it works…. that would make it easier for newbies and llamas. I have no problems w/ the current state of driver/library installation, but people like my step brother think linux is awesome, and wants it, so I install it, and he never even boots into it…. its too hard… etc etc etc. I am very optimistic though, two years ago I ditched Windoze completely at home and since have acquired a nice collection of games that run on my OS of choice, Quake 1,2,3, Kingpin, Unreal Tournament, Heroes of Might and Magic, Heavy Gear 2, Descent 3, Myth II, Heretic II, Soldier Of Fortune, Eric’s Solitaire, Shogo, Sim City 3000, Rune, Rune: Halls Of Valhalla, and Tribes 2 soon Kohan. Then on top of those games I play in Linux, I also play Half-Life, Alice, and Heavy Metal Fakk under Wine. Then there are countless emulators. Two weeks ago I did reinstall Windows, and I have a windows partition, with Serious Sam, and Max Payne installed… I’d say that I’m a satisfied hardcore Linux gamer…. I just hope that the current effort and work is continued by the likes of Loki, id, Epic, etc. Well enough of my senseless babbling, I need some coffee.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I can say that I think the next year or so will be a good one. I know of a few things going on that arent public knowledge, and some of them are very exciting.
I think that the porting of AAA games will slow down. They are just way too expensive to obtain the rights for. But the porting of other games I think will become stronger. More games along the level of Myth 2 and Shogo and JA2. None are AAA titles, but they are good playable games that people enjoy.
To let you all in on a secret that I cannot give details away on right now, but someone out there is planning a development of an A-grade game tha will run on Linux, *BSD, BEOS, Solaris, and Mac. Note, it does NOT include Windows in that list. Interesting huh.
Thats my take on it.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I think that if linux gaming systems were available we would see a rise in linux gaming. There are some problems with this right now. I don’t think the nvidia drivers or X work together that great right now. Most of the games I play it seems I have to start in init 3 and start x. I don’t think you are going to get any converts if they always have to do that. If those two things get fixed and if you had a company (big name) that sold a linux gaming solution than maybe it would improve.
Also I think that video graphic companies need to work closer with the Xfree86 team to have quality acceleration out the door. Why can’t the nvidia module be package with most distributions? If it is package in a dist. you know what the kernel is so there is no recompiling of the module. Then if you did upgrade the kernel, why can’t we just download one package for a grapics adapter that all you had to do was click on a setup that automatically added the glx package and compiled, for your kernel, and installed the module package.
Last, I think another thing that is important to a linux gaming systems is having vast multimedia features just like a windows box. Like the vast amount of plugins available for the windows platform. Though companies like codeweavers have done some great work in making a linux plugin using wine it is still not enough. We need mozilla to become final with few bugs and a vast amount of plugins. I know plugins like plugger exist, but converts with not mess with the config file to change what app starts with what, because for me some of the best apps (ex. aviplay) are not the default of plugger.
Ok Last Last, One other thing that haunt us users is microsoft office products. I don’t know if we will ever see a full port to linux (not sure I want to), but today’s solutions to import these file just don’t work that great. If one thing and one thing only came out of microsoft’s antitrust suit I wish it was this. They have to open up the office filters (word and excel) so that other companies can produce suites that can open these documents correctly. If they have the best suite on the market then this should not hurt their business. Though some people may not think this is important for linux gaming I would have to disagree. Most parents know windows. When they go to buy a family computer what do you think they will choose?
When they go a buy a computer for their child to go to college what do you think they will buy for them? Windows systems. It is the only OS that they really know and is has that handy dandy MS office product bundled right into it.
Just a couple of my thoughts
J
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I don’t see Linux as ever being a commercially viable gaming platform. Linux will not replace Windows as the desktop of choice anytime in the next couple of years. Although distros like SuSE, Redhat and Mandrake are making HUGE progress in making Linux user friendly, too many of the people who work on Linux are dead-set against making it user friendly.
You know the type: The tech snobs. They insist that you should not use Linux if you’re not willing to learn the OS. They want Linux to be some complex, mysterious OS that gives them some form of social status because they are a guru and most people aren’t. Therefore, the OS will never be *user* friendly although it may be admin friendly.
Because of that, you will never convert people like my dad. He likes to play all the RTS and FPS games in single player mode. He doesn’t know a lot about Windows, but he knows how to play his games. He uses AOHell and is happy with it. It meets his needs. He doesn’t care about being tech savvy, not does he want to care. He just wants to throw in a CD and relax for a couple of hours.
I would guess that he is part of the majority of the gaming audience. The gamers who are willing to go through the trouble of learning a new OS (and a quite complex one at that) are a tiny percentage of the gaming population. So the majority of gamers don’t care about Linux (“My game works fine in Windows. Why would I use anything else.”) or don’t know much about Linux.
I agree that marketing would help the situation. Build awareness that Linux is a viable gaming platform.
Have you noticed that of all of the games that are commercially available for Windows and Linux, not one has mentioned on their print ads that they are or would be available for Linux. Why is that?
I don’t know how much print ads cost, but perhaps Linuxgames or another one of the Linux gaming sites could get contributions from the community and start running full-page ads in gaming magazines. The ad would show a BSOD at the top and say something like, “Sick of this?” and then show a bunch of screen shots of games running on Linux and say, “Then try this.” Of course there would have to be a penguin on the page. I would fork over $5 or $10 to see that.
On a related note…I subscribe to a popular gaming magazine. I sent their editor an e-mail asking why they never cover Linux games or the state of Linux gaming. Their response was that they haven’t done anything on Linux because all of the games on Linux are available on Windows, so by covering the Windows version, they don’t need to cover the Linux version. So seeing the above comment about an A-class game coming out for everything BUT windows, is great news.
Yippee38
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Jebus! Why hath thou forsaken us???
/me sees RMS, ESR, Scott Draeker, and John Carmack riding up on four horses.
w00t!
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Linux has already proven itself as a viable gaming os. It runs games and runs them well. The games might be a bit harder to install, and the os may be “harder” to use, but I think we are already there. Look at Linux’s list of games, and look how much better both the games and the os runs than their closed source counterparts. I don’t even care much anymore if certain other companies don’t feel the need to support us. We have a healthy list of games and a few more coming in the near future to keep us busy for a while. If companies decide to stop supporting us, I’ll just turn to Transgaming who should be up and running soon. And if they don’t work out and no one else comes along, I guess I’ll have to get off my lazy ass and start carrying the torch. I will never buy something that doesn’t run in Linux again.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
This is fairly off-topic, but maybe I can get a concrete answer here.
Are the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback Wheel’s supported under Linux?
I use a USB optical mouse, which works perfectly fine. I just
received the MS wheel as a birthday present. When I plug it in, I
get a kernel oops. I was thinking of exchanging it for the Logitech
equivalent since that seems to have some support.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
I don’t see a bright future for Linux… Carmack was quite clear some days ago: OpenGL starts to loose credibility compared to Direct3D. Why a game company should develop a portable game when they can use DirectX all around and still keep the 95% of their target business?
Dx8 is so easy compared to OpenGL…if I want to use the pixel shader function I can do it almost in the same way for nVidia, ATI and cards without pixel shader! In OpenGL I will have to write the code twice! That sucks…
Another problem in Linux is binary compatibility… delivering a binary package is a problem ’cause the distribuition differences…
And the console evolution will bring the game business away from PCs… and maybe that’s not a problem per se…
As I said before in this forum.. the way Linux should follow is DIFFERENTIATE… let’s try to do something different from the Windows market..
Don’t forget to keep looking my atp3…
Ciao
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
games do not make or break linux at this point. Before linux can become a viable game platform to the masses, it needs to become more mature. Linux itself is moving quite nicely but the desktop environments are far from par. The applications in linux are far from par too. Until Gnome or KDE can gain some ground and build up a large collection of useful applications, linux will never take off with the masses. At this point it is best for the linux community to focus on the desktop environment and applications. Once these are secure, the games will come with the additional users or market. As of now, there simply isn’t a market for linux games that is worthwhile. Take a look at Mac OS X. The kernel itself isn’t all that compared to the linux kernel. However, what makes Mac OS X is their Aqua desktop. It’s the desktop that makes or breaks a OS and the desktop just isn’t there for linux. Well not one that is viable to non computer geeks. In my opinion, loki acted on games in linux way too early. You may say “it brought nvidia drivers to linux” but I would say “nvidia does linux drivers for comercial reasons and not games.” Linux of now is for servers, geeks, and workstations.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Well I want to see Linux grow and push for better things, but we can’t if everyone is not going to support the companies. I support Loki, theKompany and any other company that put there time into an app or game that I can use. I don’t mind paying for things I think that people need to start to understand that and stop going to Linux base Warez sites. I never pirate any thing when I was using Linux. Why? Because I wanted to see this OS grow I figure this is the only OS that can stop Microsoft from having a hold on the Desktop. I understand not everything in this world is for free… Do you?
I figure the way we are going to get more desktop share is for us to make things easier on developers and users. I not talking about *nix developers and users but I’m talking about new comers to the *nix world. We have to make the desktop easy to use and make it so people can file where when they download them, Automataily put a icon for Doom 3 on there Desktop/Menus (Gnome, KDE, Sawfish and etc) and other little things make using MacOS, BeOS and other great. I wish distros like RedHat, SuSe and Mandrake start using the LSB but they got their head so far up their ass they will never use it anyways. I also wish that the GNOME and KDE team started working together to make things easier on use newcomers, but they keep fight and starting dumb little flame wars. Hell I would love to be able to click on a bin file and get a program to install the latest KDE without all the shit we have to go thought now with RPMs.
If they Linux community doesn’t want these changes then what more could I do? I try to support companies I did my best to hold back from using Windows. I even don’t duel boot anymore just for the simple fact that I wanted to show my support and help with the fight in ever way I can. I got to Linuxnewbie.org and help out the newcomers. I gave my friend my cell phone number so he can call me anytime he needs help with this Linux box. I post on forms (mainly ZDnet) trying to get Windows users to understand without flaming them. In the end when companies like Loki goes under and Nvidia stop supporting Linux I will just go back to using Windows. Why? Because I feel that the community did even try to put up a good fight for their games, they’re future and their freedom. I feel like a loser supporting Linux for over 2 years.
P.S: I not talking to the ones that care about Linux must as I do, I’m talking to them wanna bes and fakers out there.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
There are two ways that commercial Linux gaming will succeed.
[br]
The first way is WHEN the day comes that one or more of the office suites reads/writes MS Office files corporations will suddenly become very interested in this ‘free’ alternative. As more and more companies install Linux (Largo FL, etc.) more users will become comfortable and familiar with Linux. When people can no longer get work to pay for a copy of MS Office at home (or pirate it for that matter) they will install the os and office suite that is compatible with what they use at work esp. if it costs less. And those people will need games.
[br]
The second way is that Linux gets an exclusive title that is at least not available on Windose. And that title gets lots of press and good reviews. msimms implies below that this might happen in which case we are getting both prongs of the fork.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
Here is my thoughts as I see the issue…
1) There needs to be better cross platform tools for creating games for Win/Lin/Mac. Until more well written application for croos plat programming can be created for the easiest porting, then the money will not be there for these companies to invest the people to do the ports.
2) Linux needs to win over the business workstation enviroment. Why?! Well it is simple. Mr. Smith goes to work and uses Windows all day. When he goes home he wants to use the same type of system that he is familiar with. Windows. The same holds true for Linux. When it is in more businesses and people are using StarOffice or KOffice all day long, that is what they want at home.
3) The browser war. Linux needs to compete. Internet Explorer is much nicer then Netscape, but Netscape is starting to get there.
4) Installations need to be idiot proof. That includes upgrades and addons. The Unreal Tourney install is sweet, but try and install a umod in Linux after trying it in Windows.
Final thought) Linux needs to win over the home before it can win over the games. There is just not enough money for porting right now. Unless the tools make it TOO simple, it will not happen for a while.
LD
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
As long as 99% of LINUX USERS would rather reboot to their win2k partition and fire up their warezed copy of quake3 or tribes2 than spend the $$ on a native linux version, we’re doomed. I wish it were otherwise.
Apart from Doom3 and NWN, I don’t see many AAA titles on the horizon for several years.
November 30th, -0001 at 12:00 am
A fundamental problem with Linux is that it was built and thrives around an anarchistic system – the “bazaar” model versus the previously well-established “cathedral”. However, that is no absolute pancea. Many development efforts have been organized bazaar-mode and failed miserably. Even worse when they were supposed to make money.
The question of making Linux inherently profitable has not yet been solved. The problem of standardizing Linux may never be.
If Linux himself were to advocate that deliberations be made as to the overall structuring of Linux – standardized directories, console interfaces, GUI paradigms – and regulated by various elected bodies, everything would probably work out fine. And note that I said “advocate”. But it won’t happen. It’s not the guy’s nature, and so we have various people advocating different things and none of them having that innate authority, that anointing that comes from being “leader”, “founder”, “father”. (I will neatly sidestep the RMS legitimate parenthood debate here).
So we go on with suggestions and opinions and little changes. Linux as a platform is responding to changes waaay too slowly, and that’s because of its democratic/anarchistic nature. And even when a consensus is reached, if you choose to go against it, no one can stop you (unless Linus decides to start exercising his ownership of the trademark “Linux”). Contrast that with the authoritarian ship MS runs. Billy Boy sees a threat or an opportunity and says change heading – it’s done.
I shall now resume browsing with my IE6 on Win2kPro, having ditched Linux pro-tem to actually get some work done. Cya!
July 26th, 2005 at 4:26 am
Dear People
I have been given the task of getting links for our websites that have good page rank on the links directories.
In addition we have many categories so your site will be place on an appropriate page.
If you would like to trade links please send me your website details.
If you are not the right person please pass this on to your webmaster.
Best Regards,
Helen Williams
August 16th, 2005 at 10:05 am
Dear People
I have been given the task of getting links for our websites
that have good page rank on the links directories.
In addition we have many categories so your site will be place on an appropriate page.
If you would like to trade links please send me your website details.
If you are not the right person please pass this on to your webmaster.
Best Regards,
Jane Smith
Link Development